View Full Version : The truth about customization
I for one, and probably many others, would like to know "the truth" about how one can customize racquets when it comes to weight, balance, swingweight and power or less power.
The more one read, the more confuced one get - since so many people say different things. Some say that 3 grams in the head makes a big difference on how the racquet performs, while others say the opposite. Some people say that 7 grams at the handle makes a huge difference, and others claim almost no difference with that. (The grams mentioned here are only examples.)
I think it would be GREAT if people who work with this, and really know the truth about how it works, could explain and tell it once and for all in this thread:)
To be very specific, I mean how much 1 (or 2 or 4) gram(s) on the racquet (head, middle or handle) changes the behavior of it (balance, swingweight, power or less power).
I am writing this to get great knowledge about this in general for future use, and I also have 2 small specific personal questions below.
(I have 2 racquets (Wilson 6.1 BLX 95 very head light) that are perfectly even on balance, but weighs 6 grams from each other. Could one very easy solution here be to just add 1 or 2 wrappings (laps?? sorry for my english) with lead tape (under the overgrip) at the very top of the handle near the throat, or does this mess with the balance? Should not mess the balance up too much in my humble eyes though.)
(Second specific thing I would like to know is how good and precise one can change the balance and behavior of one (or my racquets) without making them static heavier:) I think that their control is great, but I would like to change the balance (make them much more powerful) without making them much heavier. One of my thoughts here, was to just get rid of the heavy ground grip and pretty heavy overgrip, and simply replace them with much lighter grips. I believe this would save me around 10 grams in total, and make them a bit less head light??? Or, can I be very wrong here, so that more weight always creates more power (no mather where its added or subtracted)???
Your humble and curious gearfreak:D
If it's the same balance but 6gms different in weight you could put 3gms at 12 and 3gms inside the buttcap but I would only advise you to do this if you can tell the difference between the rackets while playing with them. Also this will raise the swingweight of the lighter one slightly.
cheezhdinil
2010-04-15, 03:39
If it were me (and it has been -- I've been with Wilson for 22 yrs), I'd split the difference and add 3 grams in the throat. It doesn't change the balance and will add to the static weight.
If you wish to add some power, and you're a consistent ball striker -- you might add several 1/4 strips to the hoop at 3 and 9 o'clock. I've done this to my BLXs to create a heavier ball.
When adding the lead, I've found it most convenient to use several layers. If your goal is 3 grams, perhaps try about 3 inch strips on either side of the grommets -- being aware that you'll be placing four strips. On my BLXs (4 of them) I've got 2 layers of approx. 1/4 inch tape that add up to just under 3 grams, in total. The frames weigh within 4 grams heaviest to lightest and have the same swing weights, balance point (5 pts HL) and swing as if they were clones.
That said, it's fun but tends to create addictive behavior... it's fairly common to find a solution and then, re-think it and mess about some more.
Good luck, Cheez
I agree with cheez.
Also, adding weight at the throat doesn't modify the SW as much.
But guys, now you have only answered my personal questions and not the "big and important" ones in general:) Nice answers though;)
I mean how weight, added or reduced, on different places of the racquet changes its performance in general!:)
(If more weight in general always equals more power and plough throw, or if reduced weight on the handle creates a more "hammer like" stick with more power (moving the balance forward without making it static heavier but instead static lighter), and if added weight on the handle makes the opposite and makes a heavy racquet swing faster but with less power etc etc.)
(Edit: I guess what I really want to learn is how much every little gram or balance point changes the racquets behavior.)
If you would see how bad this knowledge is among resellers here, you would probably faint...:D
XWALL:
You may want to check Stefano's suggestions to me for racket customization in order to deal with tennis elbow in a separate post. I added weight according to his suggestions and I have noted how it impacted my sense of play/feel for the racket.
Again, it's a specific solution and may not address your overall quest for a broader understanding; but you may just have to try collecting various data-points and then draw your conclusions.
Nick
TennezSport
2010-04-16, 21:01
Xwall,
Get a copy of the book "Technical Tennis" by Cross and Lindsey. It's a cut down easier reading version of the Physics and Technology of Tennis which goes in depth on all aspects of racquet performance and customization. There is a large section on customization and weighting that will answer your every question, without all of the math.
Cheers TennezSport :cool:
Larry, I bought that book from USRSA just last night! I am looking forward to reading it.
Rod Cross is a genius! Have you read this one http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2004/02/racquet_power_and_the_ideal_ra.html ? Amazing!
Nick, did my suggestions work fine? That's really sweet! You make me feel "important" :D
Xwall, what do you need to obtain? Racquet customisation is not something that can be explained using just a few words, but maybe we can manage to put you on the right track knowing what you're after ;)
Thank you guys!:)
I will order that book and start studying! This is very interesting:D
Stefano, I think I wanted my racquets (Wilson 6.1 BLX 95 18/20) a little less HL with a little more bang, without making them heavier at all...;)
What do you think about the expired Fischer M Comp 95? I just ordered two of them from Germany since the price is so very low on them now. I liked the specs, and thought it would be fun to have something "retro" in my bag:D
TennezSport
2010-04-17, 18:45
Larry, I bought that book from USRSA just last night! I am looking forward to reading it.
Rod Cross is a genius! Have you read this one http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2004/02/racquet_power_and_the_ideal_ra.html ? Amazing!
Stefano,
Yes, this is really a nice bit of work and well explained. A lot of this is also in Tech book also; enjoy.
Cheers, TennezSport :cool:
Xwall, we have a small problem....
Stefano, I think I wanted my racquets (Wilson 6.1 BLX 95 18/20) a little less HL with a little more bang, without making them heavier at all...;)
The only way to make a racquet more or less HL or HH - as far as I know - is to add a bit of lead tape, therefore increasing weight, I'm afraid.
But consider this: if you add like 10 grams of lead tape you probably won't feel it, but the racquet will be more or less HL.
I would try adding some tape at 6 o'clock. This way, the SW shouldn't increase much but the balance would definitely change. With 10 grams at 6 you should make it 2 points less HL, more or less.
Just make some experiments and see what you can come out with.
What do you think about the expired Fischer M Comp 95? I just ordered two of them from Germany since the price is so very low on them now. I liked the specs, and thought it would be fun to have something "retro" in my bag:D
I think very good things about that frame and Fischer in general. I bet you will like it ;)
Stefano, I had a "crazy" idea that I could change the balance and give it a little more bang by reducing the weight on the handle by 10-15 grams (change the "heavy" ground- and overgrips to much lighter ones). Is that thought very stupid and wrong?:o
I also have a couple of questions regarding strings and their tension:
*In general and as a rule of thumb, how much do you "need" to change the tension when changing gauge? Ex: Going from something in 1.23 to 1.18.
*In general and as a rule of thumb, how much do you "need" the change the tension when changing string pattern? Ex: Going from 16/19 to 18/20.
*How big is the difference in power and spin between a thick 1.30 Multi and a thin 1.15-1.20 Poly? Ex: Bab Addiction 1.30 and Tecnifibre Black Code 1.19. Maybe that change would change my Wilsons greatly?:D
( How do you think that my incoming Fischers will feel compared to my Wilsons? I have read many reviews about it, and many people say that it feels much stiffer than its "59". Many people also say that you should string that Fischer much lower than usual, and that it is very low in power. Is this true, or is this only words from "poor recreational players"? I am very curious about it, and its "excellent feel":D )
Xwall, I'll try my best to answer correctly to all your questions. If I miss out on something, I hope someone else will intervene and help me out :D
Stefano, I had a "crazy" idea that I could change the balance and give it a little more bang by reducing the weight on the handle by 10-15 grams (change the "heavy" ground- and overgrips to much lighter ones). Is that thought very stupid and wrong?:o
It is not stupid at all! Think this: a lot of players - to make a racquet more HL - change the synthetic grip and install a leather one. This because the leather grip is heavier, therefore it changes the balance of the frame. So the opposite must be true too. If you use very thin (and lighter) grips and overgrips you should be able to reduce the weight and move the balance slightly toward the head. I don't know of how much though, that depends on the grips you use.
*In general and as a rule of thumb, how much do you "need" to change the tension when changing gauge? Ex: Going from something in 1.23 to 1.18.
In general, a gauge 17 is twice as elastic as a 15 gauge string, everything else being equal. Therefore, the thinner string will feel more elastic. I would suggest to raise the tension by 1-2 kg (starting with 1) when you use a thinner string. It's just a guess, the best way is to try and feel it.
*In general and as a rule of thumb, how much do you "need" the change the tension when changing string pattern? Ex: Going from 16/19 to 18/20.
I would lower the tension on a 18/20 by 5 kgs, all other things being equal. Then again, you must try and see if that works for you.
*How big is the difference in power and spin between a thick 1.30 Multi and a thin 1.15-1.20 Poly? Ex: Bab Addiction 1.30 and Tecnifibre Black Code 1.19. Maybe that change would change my Wilsons greatly?:D
Poly strings are known for producing more spin, so are the thinner strings. On the other hand, the thinner string will be more elastic, therefore more powerful, but a poly is less powerful than a multi. IMHO, you should gain both power and spin, but again it's a personal preference.
( How do you think that my incoming Fischers will feel compared to my Wilsons? I have read many reviews about it, and many people say that it feels much stiffer than its "59". Many people also say that you should string that Fischer much lower than usual, and that it is very low in power. Is this true, or is this only words from "poor recreational players"? I am very curious about it, and its "excellent feel":D )
I would definitely string it lower. My Volkl C10 Pro - which is pretty soft - performs much better with lower tension. The lower the stiffness of a frame, the less power it produces.
I hope I have been able to explain you everything. Some guys on this forum know much more than me so I think they can help you out much more ;)
Stefano, you are truly fantastic!:) Your comittment to this site, your answers to tricky questions and your passion for tennis is just amazing!
I have been out from serious tennis and geartalk for almost ten years, but with you and a couple of other guys here, this site is a great source to fast and accurate knowledge (way better than most shopowners in this although large tennistown were I live).
I was very surprised about how much one should change the tensions when changing different things, now I understand why I have struggled with my serves and usual great spin overall - must lower the tension a lot if I will continue to play thick Multis in this smaller frame and tighter pattern (Wilson):D
I asume that moving up or down in framesize also needs a change of tension? EX: Going from 100 cm2 to 95 cm2. (I went from Bab Pure Drive to the mentioned ones.)
I am like a child on X-mas right now - I am not only waiting for the Fischers to came, but I also ordered some of the strings that I beleive are great for me:
SPPP 1.18 (liked it much in 1.23)
Topspin CF 1.20
MSV Focus Hex 1.18
MSV Co-Focus 1.18
Eventhough they are very thin, the first three are pretty stiff strings if I understand it correctly, so should I start the tensions around 51-53 pounds with the Fischers (95cm2 - 16/19), or do you think something very different with theese combinations? And even lower on the Wilsons (95cm2 - 18/20)?
Your humble gearfreak;)
Xwall, you're making me blushing :o
Thank you very much, I appreciate your words a lot ;)
Look, moving up or down in frame size "should" require a change in tension, but there are some exceptions: all the Volkl frames, no matter the size, have a suggested tension of 50-60 lbs. The Babolat Pure Drive GT has 50-66, while the 107 (bigger) has 50-62. Very strange indeed. So I don't have an answer, it probably just depends on the frame.
As for the tensions for Fischer and Wilson, they sound about right to me. I love low tensions, so I would probably go even lower. But that's just me, crazy guy :D
And hey! The MSV strings are just great! The 1.10mm is amazing. It wouldn't last long with some players, but it plays fantastic ;)
Stefano, no need for you to get a red face. If one is as good and kind as you are, then one should hear some nice words! ;)
I can´t wait untill Thursday when my shipping arrives :D
Do you have any personal experiences, or from customers, with the mentioned strings? Like if one is much stiffer, or softer, than the other and needs lower, or higher, tensions?
By the way, Björn Borg was playing on the court next to mine just the other day! How surprised do you think I got? :D He was training/playing with the No:1 ranked senior in Sweden. The quality, and most of all the lenght (timewise) of the rallys were impressive! In this aspect, I think that tennis and golf are very cool sports - one can still be VERY good and teach youngsters a lesson after turning 50 ;) :D
TennezSport
2010-04-20, 19:05
Look, moving up or down in frame size "should" require a change in tension, but there are some exceptions: all the Volkl frames, no matter the size, have a suggested tension of 50-60 lbs. The Babolat Pure Drive GT has 50-66, while the 107 (bigger) has 50-62. Very strange indeed. So I don't have an answer, it probably just depends on the frame. ;)
You actually mentioned it before and again here. It does depend on the frames stiffness index, weight and string pattern as all will have an effect on the SBS with respect to string type and tension range.
Good on ya mate :D
Cheers, TennezSport :cool:
It does depend on the frames stiffness index, weight and string pattern as all will have an effect on the SBS with respect to string type and tension range.
There you go! I didn't know the weight had an effect on the SBS.
Today I learnt something new.
Thank you Larry! ;)
I think you need to do some big experimentation mate. That is a lot of fun in itself.
Thin strings, thick strings, high/low tension, big head, small head. It's a big puzzle :)
...is great fun, but it costs a small furtune if you don´t string yourself ;)
When it comes to sports gear, Sweden has always been much more expensive than the US and other parts of the world :mad:
Stefano, are you sure about that 5 kg difference when changing 16/19 to 18/20 and 100cm2 to 95 cm2? It seems like a lot to me :p
I thought that you guys would raise your eyebrows when I said that the 5-time Wimbledon champion was playing next to me ;) Maybe that is normal at your courts, but not for me :p
Wow I missed that, that's incredible mate. My coach/boss is an ex-wimbledon player from probably the late 60's to 70's. She'd be about 65 now.
Here in Australia it's all very expensive too but hopefully it will all come down soon as the dollar is so strong.
Xwall, I didn't miss it, I just didn't have time today to reply. What a damn busy day! I got tons of emails to check, I'll do it tomorrow morning :eek:
But hey, I raised BOTH my eyebrows. Borg was a great player, now he's a legend.
He won every match played at Roland Garros but two. And he was defeated in both matches by an Italian player: Adriano Panatta.
Panatta achieved this feat in the fourth round in 1973 (7–6, 2–6, 7–5, 7–6), and in quarter-finals in 1976 (6–3, 6–3, 2–6, 7–6), when he won the title. Italy won the Davis Cup the same year.
Where are the Italian players now? :(
And by the way, the 5 kg less in tension are an estimate. I did a bit of testing with both versions of the Dunlop Aerogel 200 and that's what I came up with.
But again, try! You are not me (you are certainly a better player, it is not that difficult), so a set up that works good for me could be bad for you and vice-versa ;)
Xwall, I didn't miss it, I just didn't have time today to reply. What a damn busy day! I got tons of emails to check, I'll do it tomorrow morning :eek:
But hey, I raised BOTH my eyebrows. Borg was a great player, now he's a legend.
He won every match played at Roland Garros but two. And he was defeated in both matches by an Italian player: Adriano Panatta.
Panatta achieved this feat in the fourth round in 1973 (7–6, 2–6, 7–5, 7–6), and in quarter-finals in 1976 (6–3, 6–3, 2–6, 7–6), when he won the title. Italy won the Davis Cup the same year.
Where are the Italian players now? :(
And by the way, the 5 kg less in tension are an estimate. I did a bit of testing with both versions of the Dunlop Aerogel 200 and that's what I came up with.
But again, try! You are not me (you are certainly a better player, it is not that difficult), so a set up that works good for me could be bad for you and vice-versa ;)
Maybe check the email from me tonight first :)
You'll see.
DarkHors
2010-04-21, 14:39
I'd like to chime in on the 5kg less tension when switching frame size and string pattern. I switched from a prince EXO3 Graphite 100 with a 16/18 stringbed to a Wilson BLX 95 with 18/20 pattern. My original tension on the EXO was around 64 and now on my BLX I'm stringing a full bed of X-1 at 55lbs. I'm thinking of going lower and maybe doing a hybrid. Something like 48 (poly) and 52 (x-1). That's going to be my next setup so we'll see how that works out. I agree thought that you'll need to move down quite a bit to get the same SBS that you had on the 16/18 or 16/19. There's a smaller area and more strings so the stringbed will be tighter just based on those two attributes, not even factoring in the tension.
Hope this helps.
DH
TennezSport
2010-04-21, 14:42
There you go! I didn't know the weight had an effect on the SBS. Today I learnt something new. ;)
Well it's not a "direct" correlation, but has an impact on the feel/perception with the player. Weight/plow through vs. feel in SBS ;)
Cheers, TennezSport :cool:
Hi Xwall. So much depends on how you swing. Do you muscle the ball and pull it through fast, or do you have a real smooth swing where the objective is to hit the ball sweet with a good weight transfer? Adding weight to the head greatly reduces maneuverability, however it gives more plow. Adding weight to the handle usually subtracts from plow while increasing maneuverability. What you want depends on how you swing.
Kendra, I think that my style of play is in the middle of the two mentioned. Since I have been out from serious practice and team play for quite a while, my technique has sunk a bit. I play with a little more muscle (arm and shoulder) and wrist action than before, but I am trying to get back in the game and really "swing trough" the ball and let the entire body do the work.
Stefano, maybe the italian players need more strenght training for todays modern tennis... :p I think that a "player" like Mats Wilander couldn´t get a single game against todays powerful players.
Will start experimenting with everything today! :)
Stefano, how are you doing "down under"? :)
This one is not really about racquet customization, but I thought a small update about the Fischers could be nice.
Looks: Beautiful IRL, much better than in pictures. The very thin frame looks just great and inviting! I - and probably others - had a slight problem with the green text on the upper hoop witch does not match anything else in the frame - problem solved with a black markers pen...:D Only yellow, black and white now - lookes even smaller and rougher after this!
Weight, balance and feel: If this stick plays even half as good as it feels in my hand, I will sell every other racquet I have and order two more. It feels lighter, faster and much more "crisp" than the Wilsons, and they also feel much less HL witch I like. All in all, they feel more powerful and precise than the Wilsons in my hand. In my mind, weight and balance feel similar to Head Radical - something I like!
Strings: I was expecting them to come unstringed, but they came with Fischer Pro No One in 1.30 :confused: I have no experience or knowledge about this string what so ever, but I will keep them for a short period just to compare them better to the Wilsons witch also have thick "normal" strings.
Looking forward to Saturday and a three hour session!
Xwall, I love living down under! Amazing place indeed. Difficult to find something to criticise ;)
As for the Italian players, the problem is very simple: they play tons of challenger tournaments (Italy is the country with the highest number of challenger tournaments in Europe), accumulate points, become n.50 in the world and they think they are champs.
They don't understand that the most difficult part starts there :eek:
Let me know how the Fischer go. I played for 10 years with the Vacuum Pro 90 and I still have a soft spot for Fischer ;)
Theese new ( old ;) ) frames really made me think and wonder! :D
Okey, here is what I was expekting from them after reading a lot: Pretty low power, good spin, VERY nice touch, feel and control (some people claimed the best in the business), pretty good serves, very good slices and great on volleys.
But, this is what I think after 7 hours of hitting and play: Backhands: Okey power but not close to my Babs with thin polys, low spin and not very good accuracy. I do not feel confident at all on a winner. Forehands: Low on power since I hit semi-western with much spin, very low on spin and pace! Okey control, but very ineffective for my game! Not many misstakes, but no winners! Slices: With my Wilsons I found a new type of shot in my arsenal, the power slice down the line. With the Fischers that shot was totaly gone! If it didn`t hit the net, it was long or wide! volleys: Okey, but not close to what I was expekting. Serves: This is were I started to understand what was happening with the frames and OLD strings on them. At first, I thought it felt boardy and with very little feel. After a couple of hours that changed dramaticly though! I beleive that my flat serves were now the fastest and heavyest ever! The people that I usually play with were all just looking at my serves and shaking their heads.
Remember that theese OLD frames came strung, and this most probably means that the strings are VERY old. Theese strings are also VERY stiff (indexwise) for being a multi - even stiffer than some polys - and they also have some kevlar fibres inside them. I have also read that theese strings plays rough with NO SPIN what so ever. Now everything makes sence :D
Today I cut them out and replaced them with what I like and with something that fits my game: Thin, powerful and spinny polys at LOW tension ;) Topspin CF 1.20 at 49 pounds. Hopes this will change the game a lot :D
Edit: Since the Fischers are the coolest looking frames ever in my hand, I will try everything to love them! :) :) :)
Does this all make sence to you? :)
DarkHors
2010-06-10, 15:47
Ok, so after reading through all these posts, I'd like to pose my own questions for the people to think about :)
I've just purchased two Bab Aerostorm's (2008, red/black) from TW and they're matching them as close to possible for me. I'm thinking that I'm going to need to add some lead to make them a little more stable on volleys and help with some plow through when serving.
Let's say I want to add 12grams of weight to get up from 11.3 to 11.7. I know that I would want to add 3 grams on each side of the hoop at 3 and 9. My big questions is: Should I add the other 6 at the top of the handle or can I add a total of 4 strips on the flat parts of the handle under the grip, or should i just remove the butt cap and add it inside? I would like to be able to do it just using tape, but I would also like to know what the ramifications are going to be for those choices.
Thanks everyone for your help!!
DH
Dark, I answered in your other thread.
As for this question, it depends on which balance and swing weight you want to achieve, and also which kind of player you are and how you want your racquet to "behave".
The further from your hand you put lead, the higher the SW goes. If you add tape at the handle, you counterbalance the frame so the balance will not change.
Then it depends on how much weight you add and where. A depolarized set up (weight in the middle of the frame) makes the racquet more powerful, more stable and flattens the ground strokes. Perfect for serve-and-volleyers or to return serves deep and fast. A polarised set up (weight at the extremities,12 o'clock and under the butt cap) makes the racquet less powerful but helps producing top spin. A set up for pure baseliners. ;)
DarkHors
2010-06-11, 21:17
Hi Stefano,
So I know that I want a polarized setup because I like the balance point of the racket as is, I'm just looking to add a smidgen of weight to make it a little more potent without tiring me out while serving. I've already decided that the 3 and 9 positions would be where I put the lead for the hoop, but I didn't know if there's a difference between where I put it on or around the handle (i.e. does it make a difference if it's at the top of the grip, directly under the grip or inside the handle)?
That's what I'm trying to figure out what to do. I play single and doubles, and I play an all court game. I like to go in on good approach shots, but I can hit from the baseline too. Hopefully this info will help us to the answer :)
Thanks,
DH
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