View Full Version : 2 piece stinging
Hi, i read in the stringing guide that you should start the crosses at the top of all rackets, because it reduces stress on the racket, is this true and what is the proof? I ask 'cause i use a prostaff tour and have been stringin one piece on it for ages with no problem. I think the factory string was a one piece also. Your comments please
The bad thing is that you can't always see what's happening to the frame because it's happening below the surface. If the stress on the material is too high, the material gets weak. You only see it when it's too late and there's a visible crack.
Anyway, the deformation of the frame is smaller when you start the crosses at the top of the frame. The throat area of the racquet is more stable than the head so it inerts more resistance to the deformation of the frame.
Some racquet brands won't replace your racquet if it's cracked and they see that it's been strung from throat to head.
okay, that's fine, i'm just wondering if this is true, why don't the manufacutres recommend a two string method for the relevant rackets. I mean i've never ever seen anything from wilson about this. Also, i have another question, how high over the recommended stringing range could i go for a ncode 90 or tour 90. I'm thinking of stringing it at about 69lbs.
I don't think the frame will be damaged if you string at 69 lbs. Should be no problem.
Hello everyone !
I've been stringing for 16 years and 10 years as pro stringer. About frame stress, I experienced 2 and 4 knots patterns and after several thousands of stringing with different machines (electronic, air, drop weight, mecanic, ...) it's obvious that 2 knots patterns are no good for the frame.
Why ? First, you can see a higher distortion of the frame when you string the first crosses especially if you go directly from the mains to the crosses
at the top of the head, much less if you begin your crosses from the bottom because the heart of the frame is structurally the tougher zone of it (source: Wilson racquet sports principal ingineer).
Two, when you use a 2 knots pattern, there is a big tension difference between mains and crosses. mains are strung first with no resistance but crosses must be strung going up and down of the mains and that creates a loss of tension of 30% at least. Then, crosses need physically to get tension back from the mains as balance phenomena. This is perhaps the higher source of stress on the frames.
Three, as example, ask Yonex ingineer about it. Isometric shape makes the frame more fragile to frame stress. That's why they recommand to string with a 4 knots pattern and to begin the crosses at the top of the head to avoid distortion after releasing the clamps.
Hi man,
that's an interesting posting, it is a real pleasure to find someone else who knows what he's talking about. Maybe you can give me a break for a while and answer a few of the postings on this forum. ;)
I get the impression that the others ask the questions, that I answer most of them and that either the majority don't understand or don't care what has been written, because apart from Jaypro and DF, with a small exception for DanN nobody really gives a damn. What I don't understand is why someone asks a question and doesn't acknowedge the reply. It happens far too often. :o
Sorry Joe, you thank me regularly, but there again we seem to agree on most things, it's true that from you and Dirk I do get encouragements.
So Iznofun, I would appreciate a few days off, so GO fot it. :D :D
I will keep an eye on you,
:cool:
Hi iznofun, welcome on board! :)
Hey Jay Cee, don't be frustrated, you really do an excellent job here. But I understand if you want to take a few days off and I'll be really happy if you come back soon. ;)
give me a friggin break...a few days off....
great but our friend gave some conflicting information on the issue of where to start your crosses. He claims distortion is greater if started at the head rather than the throat, anyone care to explain?
Hawkeye2
2004-08-04, 07:43
Hi abiriax,
We can't explain why your friend thinks that the distortion is greater if the crosses are started at the head rather than the throat.
This is because we think (at least Joe,iznofun and me) that the racket distortion is greater when stringing the crosses from the throat to the head.
And there have been a lot of good explanations for that already.
Bye
Iznofun,
Already back again, just keeping an eye on you man. :D
Well my friend, Abiriax is right and both Hawheye2 and I misread the meaning of your posting, and thanks to Abiriax I re-read it and agree with him that you tend to disagree with what most of us have defendeded since many years, that T to B is far better for the frame than B to T. There again you quote one example with Wilson frames and then the opposite with Yonex frames. :confused:
Let's just take 3 examples, Wilson Pro Staff, Head Tour Series and Yonex. The Wilson frames are generally much stronger and stiffer than both the Head and the Yonex frames and personally I have never been overly concerned by distortion on Wison Pro Staff frames. As long as it is strung from the center, alternatively string by string to left and right to balance the stress of the mains equally on both sides of the frame, there is no reason to believe that either stringing in 1 piece or 2 pieces from B to T with cause more stress to the frame than when stringing in 2 pieces from T to B. So concerning Wilson I do not disagree with you, but I string these frames in 2 pieces, where I finish the mains with the 2 bottom cross strings, before tying off, then start from the head for the crosses, which will then tie off after the 3rd last cross, and so far it works well for me. :cool:
Real distortion can be seen in the Head and Yonex frames, especially if you use a 2 point mounting system. I have seen Head prestige racquets with terrible shapes, but also Yonex and Volkl frames (which are strung from T to B when strung in 1 piece) that are unbelievebly deformed, even when strung on 6 point mounting machines. These racquets have soft frames, so the stress is visible, which means that on Wilson frames, even if it is not visible that does not mean that the stress is not there, this is what Joe has pointed out. It can be even worse on the frame to have all of this stress supported by the structure with little or no give in it, this can definitely lead to micro cracks which sooner or later will break the frame. :mad:
I believe that the worst way to string a racquet is in 1 piece, where you string in all of the mains on one side, before stringing in the other side of the mains, then following it up by stringing the crosses either from B to T or even T to B. The difference is that a soft frame can be visibly more deformed when you finish the crosses in the head. The real stress was created when the mains were put in, the crosses can not re-establish the balance in the string-bed so they just maintain the "statut-quo" and the result is terrible stress on the frame. :o
When stringing in 2 pieces, generally the stringer will alternatively string in both directions from the center/out, but if he strings the same way as in 1 piece stringing : all one side, then all the other side, the result will be just as bad as my example of what should not be done. On the contrary, if in 1 piece stringing you string the mains alternatively left and right from the center/out there is no logical reason that the frame will not be strung well. ;)
In fact the real stress comes from the mains being badly strung, this can be slightly compensated when the crosses are strung from Top to Bottom, or emphasized by stringing Bottom to Top. :eek:
I would be interested in your comments Iznofun, as for the differences of the tension between mains and crosses, it's a really hot subject which I will write about a little later.
Bye,
:cool:
Hawkeye2
2004-08-04, 11:54
@Jay Cee
Hi,
it was quite easy to misunderstand iznofun...
None the less, I would always string according to the suggested stringing pattern of the manufacturer and when in doubt I would always string the crosses from top to bottom...
Bye
I read everything, JayCee, I just don't usually post unless I feel like I can contribute something (and I've only been stringing for about a year or so now :) ). I do appreciate all of the advice you experienced guys give though.
Dan
Hello everyone,
First I'd like to apologize for my uncomplete explainations about stringing pattern.
Two, my problem is that I always consider that a good stringer begins mains from the center and put the tension once on the right side and once to the left side of the mains to avoid that only one side is strung before the other.
Why ? Imagine a medium tension (25 Kg), if you string one side of mains, it means 8 or 9 strings, the pressure on the frame will be around 200 to 250 Kg. No half frame can sustain this pressure without a high structural distortion at the top of the head which is the weakest zone, exactly at 2H00 an 10H00. After this, you can't balance the distorsion by stinging the other side even with a higher tension, which may cause another risk of break.
Obviously, the bottom of the frame (zone of the bridge or center) is the toughest zone of the frame but the point is not where you begin crosses with a 2 knots pattern but the order of stringing for a good balance of the tension on the frame.
Anyway, if you want to save your racquet stiffness the longer possible and to avoid an early break of it, please string mains and crosses separately. Many manufacturers recommand this way for warranty, so it sounds once again this is no bullshit.
A last word to greet Jay Cee who may know more about tennis material than anyone I know on the TOUR. Hope to read from you soon !
Like DanN, I've been following all of this and find the comments really useful even if I haven't contributed myself to date - I only signed up 2 days ago even though I've been using the site for almost a year.
Anyway, the information is really helpful and is being used by many silent partners.
I'm really interested to try some of Jay Cee's recommendations on 2 piece stringing (Re: increased tension on the crosses and last 2 mains).
Keep it going guys, you really are appreciated. :)
regards,
kwick
Paris,France
Hi, I have a question for JayCee,
I was thinking about your update of 04.08.2004 08:52 where you mention finishing off Wilson Pro staff frames with a cross after the final main on each side on a two piece. Then you have your bottom three cross strings all with tie-offs. I like the idea of not tying off after the last main :) which is why (until now) I use one piece ATW and Wimbledon weave patterns to achieve the same. However, with all 3 bottom crosses tied off, couldn't that lead to some imbalance, especially if you're adding tension on all 3 as you propose in some other postings :confused:
Would you do the same and tie off 3 crosses at the top if your mains finshed at the head ?
Do you just do this on Wilson frames or standard practice for any 2 piece ?
I'm interested in yours and others thoughts on this one.
Deep respect for all of your postings and information. I will be trying out some of your tensioning recommendations this weekend.
regards,
kwick ;)
@ Kwick,
Thanks for your postings, welcome on board.
Firstly, you are a bit mixed up, I don't finish the mains on 3 crosses, but only 2. What I have suggested is that instead of increasing the tension by 8lbs on the last 2 crosses, when using flying clamps, where these clamps are less precise on the last clamping before the knot, then you can compensate the loss of tension here by increasing the tension on the last 3 crosses rather than just 2 as I recommend. ;)
Most Wilson Pro Staff frames and often the Prince frames use the 3rd, 4th or 5th last cross grommet hole from the bottom to tie-off the crosses, Babolat Pure Drive uses the 2nd last cross.
I ALWAYS string a Head Prestige 600 by finishing each main by a cross string, tie-off on a main. With a gut in the crosses it's almost impossible to put in the last 2 bottom crosses when the mains are already in place. You must use this method or an ATW (limited to 1 piece stringing). For the remaining crosses I tie-off on a cross. What is necessary for the Head Prestige 600 is also preferable for all of the Head Tour Series racquets, but you can tie-off the remaining crosses on a main.
Check where you need to tie-off, before you finish weaving in the crosses, because if you tie-off on a cross you may have to skip a cross so that you can tie-off correctly. :eek:
Finishing each of the mains on a cross string requires you to be an experienced stringer, as well as to have an appropriate machine. This method is very difficult if your machine has flying clamps or a single fixed clamp, unless you have a good starting clamp which will give you the means to block one cross whilst you are tensionning the other one. This method is probably also difficult with an Ektelon or similar "rail clamp system" because you need to block the mains and the crosses at the same time (with an extra "flying clamp" or a "starting clamp" clamp it should be possible, but I have not tried it personally).
It's easier with a professional quality machine with good DUAL "single" or "double-action" clamps, because you can clamp any string, mains and/or crosses, independantly. However, having a good "starting clamp" can be very useful.
So, taking these points as being a prerequisate, for those of you who are not afraid of complicating matters considerably, here is a step by step explanation of what has to be done and why. :cool:
Note : To finish the mains on a cross string you will need about 18 inches (40 cms) more string for the mains than you would usually take.
The real complication in putting in the last 2 crosses on the end of the last 2 mains, is that when you start the remaining crosses at the head of the racquet, when you get to the 3rd last cross from the bottom, it must be in phase with the last 2 crosses, otherwise you can have 2 crosses that weave through the mains the same way (doubled) instead of weaving alternatively. :mad:
Once you have made this mistake 5 or 6 times you will understand how to sort it out (or give up!!).
This method has the sole objective of giving the best possible stability of tension on his mains for as long as possible. so we are going to minimise anything that will bring about a loss of tension.
The real advantage is that with this method we can string the crosses from T to B when the mains are finished off at the throat, it is an alternative to ATW. It is also a very good solution for hybrid strings as the ATW is based on one piece stringing. In both methods the objective is better tension stability than if you tie the mains off directly to the knot.
If you are motivated, here is the way to do it :
1.) Put in the mains at normal tension from center/out L/R alternatively, then increase the tension by 8 lbs for each of the last 2 mains L & R, then clamp the last main on each side of the frame.
2.) From the left side weave through the 2nd last cross
3.) From the right side weave through the last cross.
4.) Keep the tension of +8lbs, apply it to the 2nd last cross then take the clamp from the left side last main, clamp the 2nd last cross just left of the center of the string-bed. (*)
5.) Apply the tension to the last cross, remove the clamp from the last main on right side, then clamp the 2nd last cross just beside the other clamp on the same cross. You will have, at this moment the 2 clamps side by side on the same cross string, with the tension being applied to the last cross string. (*)
6.) Remove the left side clamp from the 2nd last cross, then clamp the last cross on the left side close to the frame. Tie-off the last cross. (*)
7.) Apply tension to 2nd last cross, remove the clamp then reclamp the 2nd last cross on the right side close to the frame. Tie off the 2nd last cross. (*)
8.) Remove the clamps from the crosses once the knots have been made.
9.) Pull hard onto each cross to bed in the knots, then push down hard on each of the last mains to pick up the slack from the last crosses, then alternatively push 2nd last, 3rd last and 4th last mains to push the slack to the center of the string-bed.
10.) Weave in the first 2 cross strings at the top of the frame. (with difficult frames like the Head Prestige 600, I put in these 2 crosses before putting in the last mains, it's much easier). The problem here is that you must count the strings in the crosses to be sure that you will be in phase at the bottom. My method is to compare the position of the 2nd cross on the 2nd last main on the left (it goes under or over), compared with the 2nd last cross on the same main. With 19 crosses it is the same with 18 or 20 it is opposite. Just count : under - over - under - over - etc. all the way down the grommet holes for the crosses to be sure when you get to the 3rd last cross, that all is OK.
11.) To string the crosses at 4lbs more than the mains, you will need to lower the tension (that was at +8lbs) by 4lbs.
12.) Start tensionning the crosses and clamping, one after the other, always weaving in advance 1 cross, before tensionning the previous cross.
13.) If the tie-off is on a main, go directly to it after the 3rd last cross. If the hole to tie-off the crosses is on the 3rd last cross, you must skip the 4th last cross before putting in the 3rd last cross, then going back to the 4th last cross so that you can successfully tie-off on the 3rd last (wow!). Of course you have to pay attention as to how you weave, the 5th last cross and the 3rd last cross go in the same way, the 4th last will be a real bastard to put in, take it easy, do it half way, pull through all the slack then finish the rest. Please increase the tension by 8lbs on each of the last 2 crosses before the knot.
Not only the Pros can benefit from this method, this can also be an advantage for players who keep the same string for several months.
(* Alternative method available for steps 4.) to 7.), refer to follow-up posting on starting-clamp)
Good luck,
:cool:
Follow-up subject on use of a "Starting Clamp"
For those of you who are not sure what a starting clamp is, here is the best one on the market the RAB:)
http://www.grandslamstringers.com/cart/Details.cfm?ProdID=33&category=0
It seems expensive, but in fact this is an extremely useful tool that will help you in many different ways, cheaper tools are available but they often slip when under tension and can really destroy a string. I use this RAB clamp since many years and can highly recommend it. If you have a flying clamp machine, this tool is what you need to be able to string with the method explained in these postings. Read on, I will explain how to do it.
If you have a dual clamp machine, it is possible to apply my method without a starting clamp, but it is much easier with one. :)
* Steps numbers 4.) 5.) 6.) & 7.) can be simplified if you have a starting clamp - you need to be aware of the precautions to take. :(
With such a clamp you can put tension on a string then block the string by clamping it on the OUTSIDE of the frame, whilst the string is still being tensionned by the machine, by clamping the string just next to the frame. Once clamped, release the tension from the machine, the clamp will move back tightly against the frame and therefore maintain the tension on the string. (You MUST NOT try to remove this clamp until you have put the string under tension again with the machine, otherwise you can damage the string. :o )
Alternative method :
4.) Keep the tension of +8lbs, apply it to the 2nd last cross leave the clamp in place on the left side last main, clamp the 2nd last cross just outside the frame (between the frame and the machine) with the starting clamp.
5.) & 6.) Apply the tension to the last cross, remove the clamp from the last main on left side, then clamp the last cross on the left side close to the frame. (with a flying clamp you can now clamp the 2 last cross strings, as both are now tensionned.) Tie-off the last cross and remove the clamp.
7.) Apply tension to 2nd last cross, remove the starting clamp then clamp the 2nd last cross on the right side close to the frame. (with a flying clamp you clamp the 2 crosses). Tie off the 2nd last cross.
8.) to 13.) Follow the remaining steps as previously posted.
I'm sure that you will find this more convenient. :)
Some feed back from anyone who tries my method would be much appreciated.
Bye,
:cool:
JayCee,
Thanks for the welcome :D. For introductions, I've been stringing for just over a year after a 2 day crash course from a old pro from the Wimbledon Bow Brand stringing team.
Got everything in your reply and you've also answered my next problem as well. I was looking at my PS tour 90 frame yesterday morning trying to figure out how to tie off the last cross on itself. You've answered it before I got the chance to ask. Great explanation, I'll try it out and give you some feedback.
I've always been an avid follower of 1 piece stringing until now whether it be ATW or Wimbledon weave. (Wimbledon weave for me is just a normal head to throat 1 piece but I add 2 crosses at the top on the short side to help balance up the edge mains). I always felt this was advantageous over 2 piece because of tying off on the edge mains. With your 2 piece enhancements, I'm beginning to re-think and will try it out for comparison.
Cheers,
kwick (not like my stringing)
PS - I agree with your recommendation for the RAB starting clamps, they're excellent.
hey Kwick, welcome to the forum, now Jay Cee has a new playmate, maybe he'll leave me alone for a while lol
Hi Jason,
Nice to see that you are still around. That sly remark was totally uncalled for. You are just jealous that I took so much time and effort to answer an intelligent question that came from someone else but you. :D :D
If you think that you are up to it, try this method out and let me know if it is possible to de it on an Ektelon. I haven't used one of these machines in over 10 years and I am not sure if it is possible or not. Maybe you can enlighten us so that the thousands of Americans with such machines can also benefit from this incredible missive. ;)
It's hot as hell here in Paris, have a great beer on me mate, I missed you too. :p
Bye,
:cool:
correct me if i am wrong here, but i need 2 starter clamps for this application dont I? I dont have those. just 2 fixed ones. I have 2 universal flying clamps that came with the machine also, would those work?
Hi JB,
Yeah, it's possible but could be a little complicated. To use a flying clamp as a starting clamp so that you can block a single string outside of the frame is not evident. It would have to be quite tight because it would only clamp a single string in 1 direction instead of 2 strings which pull in opposite directions. Try it to see if it works, who knows maybe it can?
I strongly recommend that you acquire a RAB starting clamp, it will give you good service for years, I couln't work well without one (or 2).
Did you take that beer on me?
Bye,
:cool:
i know i need to invest in a couple starting clamps, those flying ones dont look very high quality. I'll try this method when i get the starting clamps, probably easier ha?
Hi JayCee,
I tried your 2 piece recs on my PS Tour 90 with a hybrid of Cyber Power and Bow Brand natural gut. I did take me some time to work out how to start the crosses (over or under) but I followed you instructions to the letter and it came out fine :) . I'm sure I will still make some mistakes in the future and end up with the 2nd and 3rd last cross weaving in the same way but I hope not - especially with gut :p . It took me about an hour first time but I'm sure that will improve with practice and familiarity.
I still have some concerns but I think your detailed description covered it but I will explain why I think it is important to use your technique in particular pressing on the edge mains to take up slack from the tied off crosses. Here's why :
My concern with this method is this. You are adding one cross at the end of each main and then tying them off so the bottom two crosses are tied. You then put in the regular crosses and either tie off at the 3rd last cross position or, as in my case with the Wilson, you have to miss the 4th last cross, drop down to the 3rd last and then back up to the 4th last cross and tie off. So, all 3 bottom cross strings are tied off or worse with the Wilson, the bottom 2 crosses and the 4th last cross which was tensioned between 2 strings already under tension :eek:
Now I have always understood that the places most susceptible to variations in tension are the tie-off strings and with this method you are concentrating all of those in one particular part of the frame, i.e. at the throat (bottom 3 or 4 cross strings) in this case. The increased tension on the last 2 strings before you tie off may help but the variation is still possible. For the Wilson case, you are also applying tension to your final tie off string that is in between 2 cross strings already under tension :( which I don't like myself but not sure if that causes any additional problems in reality. I just try to avoid it although I have seen it standard practice on many factory strung racquets. Any comments on this ?
The concern is therefore twofold. (a) 3 tie-off strings all concentrated in one small area of the frame and all on crosses. (b) with all these tie-off strings concentrated on the last 3 or 4 cross strings, you are getting closer to the hitting area :eek: OK JayPro, no comments about me being a bad player if I'm hitting anywhere near the bottom 4 cross strings in the frame :p .
So, to summarise. I would not have even tried this without your recommendation and technique to take out some of the slack between edge and mains :D . However, I still think my questions about concentration in a particular area of the frame are worth considering and comment from your experience of having done it so many times :p .
Play test and comparison with my 1 piece ATW will be interesting and will let you know.
Bye the way, when is JayPro coming to Paris for this drinking tournament ?
Cheers and thanks for listening,
kwick
whenever you guys send me a ticket! haha
@ Kwick,
Thanks for your posting and thanks for giving it a go. :)
Quote
The concern is therefore twofold. (a) 3 tie-off strings all concentrated in one small area of the frame and all on crosses. (b) with all these tie-off strings concentrated on the last 3 or 4 cross strings . . .
Unquote
I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I tie-off the last main/cross string on a cross grommet, I don't see how that is possible. Both of the crosses are tied-off on the grommet which is normally used to tie off the mains. All we have done is to change sides, instead of the left main tying off on the bottom left side, it becomes a cross and is then tied off on a main grommet on the right side. The right main, then cross is tied-off on a main grommet on the left side.
Quote
For the Wilson case, you are also applying tension to your final tie off string that is in between 2 cross strings already under tension which I don't like myself but not sure if that causes any additional problems in reality. I just try to avoid it although I have seen it standard practice on many factory strung racquets. Any comments on this ?
Unquote
The only good advice I can give you is that when you thread through the last crosses pull all the remaining string through the grommet hole before you start to weave in the cross and then weave in the string from the end closest to the frame and pull through the loose end after every 2 or 3 mains. That way you avoid having to pull a long length of string through all of the mains which is not only more difficult but it will also damage strings like natural gut. If you respect this then puting in a cross between 2 crosses that are already under tension is not a problem.
I am impatient to hear the results of the play test.
Bye
:cool:
JayCee,
I think we have confused each other. I have no problem with where to tie off.
My only question is with this pattern, the bottom 3 cross strings in the frame are all tied off. With the Wilson, it's the bottom 2 and the 4th last cross. The tied off strings are getting closer to the hitting area. The question is really concerning this 4th last cross which is tied off.
A knot will not "give" at all and if you're tying a cross off which is 4 strings into the frame from the bottom edge, it's much more likely to get hit. It's a point of weakness in terms of tension stability and possibility to break prematurely because it is much nearer the hitting area. Is that a concern or not ?
I think I'll give up at this point and offer to take you out for a beer in Paris.
Cheers,
kwick
Sounds like an offer that can't be refused, I choose an Aussi Bar, is that OK with you ?
As for the knots, I've never known of this being a source of problems, I react to something when the problem arises and this method overcomes quite a few of them.
Later,
:cool:
Just to revive this thread, and to lend some more credit to the method JC is proposing ... not that any was necessary :)
At least one major string and racquet vendor (Babolat) has decided to release their 'tour' strings in half-sets for hybrid stringing:
http://www.babolat.com/hybrid/
Note that, like JC, they recommend an increase in 4 lbs for the crosses.
I, for one, have been happy with the results using this method, and would encourage others who have not tried it to give it a go.
Cheers,
Eric
Hey Eric,
Thanks for the back up. Unfortunately Babolat is a French company and it's possible that their recommendations don't have the weight of an American company. If it came from Wilson or Prince I am sure that it could really start to change some stringers habits. :p
Never-the-less, it's nice to see that a big and very reputable company like Babolat agrees with me. Maybe they have been following our Forum and tried it out for themselves.
I am very pleased to here that it works well for you, that is the most important. ;)
Later,
:cool:
steeljack
2004-09-28, 16:05
Hi Joe,
in your first answer:"The throat area of the racquet is more stable than the head so it inerts more resistance to the deformation of the frame".
If the throat area is more stable than the head, why you start cross from the head??
Sorry, but i'm a beginner !!
Steeljack,
Here's a non-technical explanation for you to think about :
When you squeeze an eliptical object at one end, it is the oppposite end that is in danger of exploding or collapsing. So, if you apply tension on the crosses from the throat first, by the time you get to the half-way point, the chances of the weaker head end incurring stress damage or even collapsing are increased. By contrast, if you string from the head, the additional strength at the throat from the handle should theoretically hold it all together and is less likely to be damaged or collapse during the stringing process.
As you get passed the half-way point, the tension in the final crosses help to balance the stresses on the frame and hold it all together in equilibrium.
I'm sure one of our maestro's can offer a much better explanation.
cheers,
kwick.
steeljack
2004-09-28, 16:38
Thanks kwick, now i understood!! :D
Hey Kwick,
That's a really neat explanation, me too I would love to hear a better one from a maestro, (let's hear it from the one and only JB, it's your turn mate . . . :p ).
Later,
:cool:
No explanation from me needed. Kwick summed it up perfectly ;) Good to hear from you JayCee, where you been bro?
Hi JB,
Had lots to do recently, but check the forum every day just to keep an eye on matters. Kwick, Eris and Hawkeye2 have been putting in some good postings, Joe is very often there and DF is still trying to get free lessons (but Veri has not shown up for a long time :( ), so for me it's been quiet on the Board.
Stringing a lot of sticks and still working seriously on some new stringing machine developments has kept me more than occupied.
So bro, if you are looking for me, just drop a line or 2, or provoke me with one of your incomparable questions. ;)
Later,
:cool:
who? me? provoke? never... ;)
Hey Kwick,
That's a really neat explanation
Cheers JayCee, I was going to get more pictoral in my explanation and suggest whacking a sausage at one end with a hammer and see where the skin breaks. However after the ribbing I took for stringing with nails, I refrained. Next time.... :)
By the way, it took me less that a minute to put in 16 mains using nails but over 4 hours to weave in the first cross. I was trying the standard (16x19) 35 piece pattern and putting all the mains in following the head to throat recommendation. It was too difficult hammering the centre mains from throat to head because of the handle. On the positive side, I didn't need a stringing machine at all ;)
later,
kwick
Hey kwick,
Take it easy man, if the word gets around some men in white dust coats may come looking for you with a straight jacket. Don't let JB know where you are hanging out these days, he may just be tempted to nail you. :D
Cheers mate.
:cool:
Yeh JayCee, Got a bit carried away yesterday. The substance effects have worn off now :cool:
Last weekend for the league matches tomorrow so my Saturdays are free again. I'll be in to see those new machines of yours.
cheers,
kwick
Hi,
reading through the discussions, I believe I have found THE most interesting thread about stringing...
Thanks Jay Cee for your step by step explanation, reading through it seemed hard, but once on the machine, it all made sense.
I tried it out with your explanation and managed to string my Wilson Hyper ProStaff 5.0 Midplus 95 as you described. It took me a bit longer than usual, but maybe once I get the hang of it, it will be fine.
I will test the racket in real life in a few days and will let you know what the result is. (I am used to string the mains 1 kg more than the crosses so the feel will be different now).
I did run into 1 question when finishing my racket. On the Wilson website, the stringing pattern for my racket says:
Two Piece : Start X's at Top at 7H. Bottom X: 7T. Tie off X's at 5H and 13T.
The last tie off for the crosses is 13T!!! which is a strange place, because it's more to the middle of the racket than usual. It also looks like the only whole that's big enough to allow 2 strings through it apart from the ones used in 1 piece stringing.
Using your method, I have 2 crosses at Bottom when i finish the mains, then I start at the top and work my way down.
At the end I can choose to tie off the the 3rd last or 4th last string, depending if I skip 1 row or not. The 4th last string is closest to 13T because 13T is the 5th last cross string. So what looks best? Skip 4th last and come back to tie off, or don't skip and then go from the 3rd last to the 13T (5th) last to tie off? Or maybe you don't use the 13T at all???
Plus, maybe it's already said somewhere, in case someone can point me to correct thread, but how is the nicest way to start at the top? Just making a knot and start stringing or is there a better way?
Hans
ggtennis
2004-10-10, 15:21
Interesting pattern/method/statements in this thread. I have strung one of my racquets using the method my new aussie/french mentor suggested and have playtested this weekend. Will have more comments/observations to share later.
A quick observation about string management. This method requires an extra 14+" of string for the mains. If you are working with hybrids from individual string packages you may want to note that in many instances you are only going to get a single set of mains from an individual package instead of two. Ultimately there is the potential for wasted string leading to additional costs. This method is obviously most cost effective when working with reels of string.
Hey GG,
That's a good posting, try it out, if you like then that's great, if you prefer to continue what you do so far, that's OK with me, but I am very pleased that you are prepared to have a go at it. :)
Your comments on cutting a single set in 2 to make the mains is absolutely right you only have 20' which is not sufficient for racquets with 18 mains + the 2 crosses. It will work for a mid or possibly a mid +, but you will need a starting clamp to put the tension on the last strings before the knots on the mains. For an O/S even with 16 mains it's not possible. :(
So, it is far better to be pulling your mains off a reel, that way you can take the required length, neither too short, nor too long. The crosses are never a problem, you never need more than 20' so you can cut a set in half to make 2 crosses. ;)
If however you can use the same string either for a main, or a cross, cut the string at 22' and 18' or even better if you are going to finish the mains on a cross string try 23' and 17' as you would do if you were to string in 2 pieces coming from a single 40' set.I often do this with sets, once cut I coil them and tie the coil with a plastic ring clip. I identify the mains (22' - 23') by putting a yellow clip, and I always clip the crosses (17' - 18') with a white clip. :p
I have a collection of all sorts of mains in 1 box and all sorts of crosses in another box, that way, with time, I use just as many mains as crosses with my different hybrid combinations, so I generally have the right length for the right string. I highly recommend this system if you start stringing a lot of hybrids. I make no attempt to calculate or to manage the balance in my coils of string, but with about 30 to 40 pieces in each box it always stays about the same, and I rarely have a problem to find the appropriate string. If I can't find what I need, I cut a full set into 2 pieces (23' + 17'), take the one I need, and throw the one left over in the appropriate box. I do the same with the string left over on reels, I make them up into half sets. Simple, isn’t it? :)
Maybe these tips will make managing hybrid stringing less of a problem.
Cheers,
:cool:
GG or JayCee,
Can any of you give me some advice on my question I posted in previous posting here regarding the tie off of the crosses on the Wilson ProStaff 5.0?
Thanks
Hans
Hans,
That's not my thing, I just string racquets so that my last cross ends up as close as possible to the large grommet hole where I have to tie-off. If it's on a cross string I prefer, but if it's close and it's on a main string (often Head racquets are like that) then that's OK. If the hole is too far away, I enlargen a grommet hole on a cross string, usually on the 4th last cross from the bottom, that's where I prefer to tie off. :cool:
Most Wilson racquets (which can be curious as to where they place their big grommet holes) can be tied off on one of the last cross strings, often it is the 3rd last, sometimes 4th last and on the PS 6.5 with 18 mains it's on the 5th last (it's better to have experience with this racquet to be able to string it well). :eek:
So either Eric, Kwick or GG (or what about JB for an ATW?) may be able to give you a plan like you need to play chess with a pen pal, that's not for me, I'm really not smart enough to understand all that stuff, it's either language or neurones, but more like double dutch to me. :D
Sorry,
:cool:
Hi Hans,
I guess I don't really understand what your problem is. If you've strung as per JayCee, even if you've strung down to the 3rd last cross, the tie-off hole at 13T is not so far away is it ?
For me, the main reason to skip the 4th last and come back up is only when your tie-off hole is on the 3rd last cross itself. In this case you have to skip the 4th last and come back up to be able to tie-off on the 3rd last. I don't think skipping it just to get a little bit closer to 13T makes sense in this example and it's over complicating it.
later,
kwick
Kwick,
it was not a problem actually, because I strung it the way Jay Cee explained. And indeed then the 13T is not so far away then.
I was just curious why Wilson is placing the big grommet holes so far from the throat. Maybe Wilson expects people to string it the "Jay Cee" way?
Before, I was finishing the mains off with a knot, and then they distance to 13T was really far!
Hans
Well I can't comment for Wilson but personally, I have witnessed the JayCee stringing method on a drop weight machine, I've used it to great effect on my own sprung tension machine and my feedback is all positive :)
1) Better tension stability and less creep (tension loss) after 24/48 hours at rest and then similarly, less loss after playing.
2) More consistent and stable stringbed providing better control
3) Allows you to drop the mains tension and reduce the gauge of the string giving more power and comfort yet still maintain the same or better level of control.
On top of that, it's very simple, quick and easy to string and brings in a whole new dimension of possibilities and variables in tension, string types and gauges that allows you to really take advantage of different string types and their characteritics.
It's now become my preferred method of stringing for myself and my recommended method for customers alike.
Come on guys, Let's have some more feedback from people that have tried it and get some comparisons against your current favoured stringing methods. I see ggtennis is giving it a whirl and I'm really interested to see how it compares to his personal preferred (and proprietary :p ) proportional method.
Cheers,
kwick
Thanks Kwick,
It's nice to have some moral support, I'm pleased that you approve of my ways of stringing. ;)
Despite GG's observations, up until now my ego problem was limited to a little personal self satisfaction, but after a posting like that one, I'm ready to have another go at JB. :p
Hey Jason, how about one of your legendry (shitty) questions to get things stirred up a bit around here, GG doesn't want to have a go, but I'm sure that I can count on your participation. :D
Cheers,
:cool:
ok JayCee i'll take the bait...here's a question for ya...why dont you go f**k yourself? hahaha
ggtennis
2004-10-18, 15:00
Have hit using jaycee's method for a little over a week. Here are some impressions/feedback.
First, pls note that I usually play with proportional stringing so this approach is a radical departure from my preferred method and my impressions/thoughts may reflect my personal preferences...even though I have tried to be as objective and open as possible.
I decided to string my racquet at 2 pounds under the max reference tension. My first concern was pulling the outer mains at 6 lbs over the manufacturers range. The racquet flex was noticable, but no damage. Heard no crackles, but it did make me nervous.
The description jaycee provided was easy to follow and when I took the racquet off of the machine (LF MS 200TT) I measured it to see if there was any distortion. It was only about 1/32" off which is acceptable. I frequently get up to 1/16" when stringing proportionally.
Let the racquet sit overnight. Prince Syn Gut w/Duraflex lost 8% tension which is about average for this string. Wasnt able to measure a tension maintenance difference with this method of stringing.
On the court the racquet hit firm, but stable. The string bed was consistent and control was very good. I did notice quite a bit more feedback/vibration/shock with this method than proportional and even the traditional method. This would clearly be my greatest concern, especially when working with customers with arm discomfort or young developing arms.
After one week of play the racquet has lost a normal amount of tension, but still plays strong. This method of stringing will be most appreciated by those who like a firm, crisp feeling string bed. Interestingly I noticed less string movement with this method. I also was surprised to find that the sweet spot felt about the same as when I use a traditional method of stringing. I went into the playtest thinking it might be reduced...that was not the case.
I was impressed enough to recommend this method to one of my customers who usually strings at the top end of the range and likes a firm stringbed. I will share his impressions later as this is exactly the type of player who has a preference that should be perfectly match by this method of stringing. I am grateful that jaycee shared this method as it provides me with yet another option to provide to my customers.
Thanks jaycee!!!
It's a pleasure GG.
Thanks for trying it out personally, I'm happy that you found it to be positive.
Cheers,
JC
:cool:
Just one more question about the Stringing instructions Jay Cee gave in this thread.
Do you also finish the mains with a cross when you use hybrid strings? Because this way you will have mixed string/colors in the cross section. :confused:
Hans
Hi Hans,
You're absolutely correct which is one of the reasons JayCee said elsewhere that it helps to chose similar colours for your hybrid.
Bottom line is the technical and ergonomical benefits outway the asthetic annoyance. If you are stringing for yourself you understand but you may have some worried looks from customers. So you need to explain it all upfront without confusing the heck out of them.
Cheers,
kwick.
David Pavlich
2004-12-20, 23:33
Well, lets have the new guy stir the pot a bit...
First, I vehemently disagree that one piece stringing is bad for a frame. I've strung way too many with no ill effects using ATW for nearly everything that ends the mains at the throat. And at very high tensions.
This will burst a lot of bubbles...I have it on excellent authority that the Wimbledon team strings head to throat if the mains end at the head and throat to head if the mains end at the throat...one piece...period, unless the player requires otherwise. The only exception is Yonex frames which are done 2 piece, head to throat.
Jay Cee, your pattern is far too complicated. This is not meant as a slam. It is obviously a sound pattern, but in my case where I have many days that I have to do frames in short order, the back and forth with the starting clamps and so on become way too cumbersome. That's the reason I never do the 50/50 pattern.
I do like the overtensioning of the last 2 mains or a main and a cross as the case may be. As a matter of fact, all of the frames I did today I did with the 2 overtensioned mains on each side.
Let the rebirth of this thread begin!
David
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