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Holabird Sports
Old 2010-06-02, 11:12   #1
Stefano
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Default Big question! We need JayCee!

Hi everyone.

I was talking to some friend of mine about stringing. He strings racquets too and he's using a Stringway EM 450 N.

Now, where is the problem?

I pretty much always string the crosses slightly tighter. IMHO, this produces a better string bed and less string movement. I do that with hybrids - when the crosses are a softer string like gut, multi o synthetic gut - but also when I string with the same string on both mains and crosses.

I strung that way for 25 years and nobody ever complained, on the contrary.

But the system on the EM 450 N says that - in order to reach a certain SBS as decided - it is necessary to string the mains tighter.

So what is a poor stringer supposed to do? Which method works best?
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Old 2010-06-02, 15:05   #2
TennezSport
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Thumbs up Awaiting JC..........

Hey Stefano,

While waiting for JC to respond, I will through my .02 into your question, if you don't mind.

I believe that the reason that Stringway makes that statement is that in order to get the desired SBS, the mains should be tighter because they are longer. A good example is the recommended string tensions that Yonex states, with a 5% decrease in the cross string tensions. Also, stringing the crosses tighter can make the sweetspot smaller.

However, I know a number of really good stringers that use your method for the exact reasons that you state. As long as your customers are happy with your work and you are consistent ( I know you are ), there is nothing wrong with your method.

Cheers mate, TennezSport
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Old 2010-06-02, 23:24   #3
brusaquarti
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With the Stringway Advisor you start by determining the SBS you are looking for, then measure L and W of the head, the pattern,and the system calculates the ideal tension for that type of racket.
Not always the mains are close to the cross strings in terms of tension, sometimes it is the opposite!

Last edited by brusaquarti; 2010-06-02 at 23:39.
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Old 2010-06-02, 23:59   #4
Stefano
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Larry, I don't mind at all, on the contrary!


Quote:
Originally Posted by TennezSport View Post
I believe that the reason that Stringway makes that statement is that in order to get the desired SBS, the mains should be tighter because they are longer. A good example is the recommended string tensions that Yonex states, with a 5% decrease in the cross string tensions. Also, stringing the crosses tighter can make the sweetspot smaller.
I'm with you 100%! My question came from the fact that John always suggests the crosses to be tighter, but the machine says the opposite. I personally believe in John much more and I personally play with that set up. A machine - in my opinion - cannot substitute a stringer's experience.

Also, I have been asked to write some articles for a very important Italian tennis magazine and I ALWAYS suggest the crosses to be tighter than the mains, unless:

- in an hybrid with polyester, the poly goes on the crosses;
- we are stringing a Yonex frame, as you correctly stated.

So there is the chance to have some reader thinking I am writing BS! hahahah


Moreover, I was talking to brusaquarti about this problem, he is the one who owns the Stringway machine.

The system calculates a SBS based on head size and string pattern, but it doesn't take the kind of string (poly, gut etc) and the gauge into consideration, does it?

Even with the same string but different gauge, the SBS will be different.

Something more: as far as I know, the stiffness of the frame has an impact on the SBS as well, so - for example - a Volkl PB10 MP 295 grams and a Volkl PB10 MP 325 grams will produce a different SBS, everything else being equal.

But the system used by Stringway doesn't use these parameters.

Am I correct?
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Old 2010-06-03, 09:50   #5
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Stefano,I do not agree on the assertion "... but the machine says the opposite": the machine does not say the opposite, the machine uses parameters, which I do not know but I know that when I am from a good SBS in relation to DT pre-set.
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Old 2010-06-03, 11:48   #6
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Default Background info of the Tension Advisor

Hi guys,

I would like to add some background information to this discussion. I did tell John about this so he will come in also. I know that he is on Roland Garros very often at the moment so it may take some time before he comes in.

The basis for the Stringway calculations is the mechanical balance in the racquet between the forces of the main and the cross strings after stringing.
The intention is to get as less distortion of the racquet head as possible.

The philosophy behind the calculations is the following:
We look at the racquet after stringing so the racquet support does not have any influence on this. (Lets assume that the racquet can stand the forces during stringing without the support)

The tension on the main strings make the racquet shorter and wider. It is the task of the cross strings to undo this distortion by pulling the racquet head back to the width before stringing.

The tension on the crosses is calculated with 2 factors in mind:
1. The forces needed to undo the widening are smaller when the length of the racquet is bigger. Less force is needed than.
2. The Tension in every cross string can be smaller when there are more crosses to apply the total force needed.

This means:
When we take a racquet with a certain width and a certain number of main strings the tension for the crosses will be lower:
- When the length of the racquet is bigger.
- When there are more cross strings in the racquet.

For example:
* We have 2 racquets with the same length (33 cm) and width (24) , one with 16x19 and one with 18x19 the needed tensions are as follows for a stiffness of 34 kg/cm (DT)
- For the 16x19, mains at 25,4 and crosses at 23,2
- For 18x19 , mains at 22,0 and crosses at 23,2.

The tension for the crosses is the same for this stiffness but the tension for the mains is higher for the 16x19 because the total force much be generated by less strings.

* When we compare 2 racquets both with 16x19 but one is longer than the one is 36 cm long and 24 width the tensions will be 28,8 for the mains and 23,2 for the crosses.

I hope this explains something.

Stringa
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Old 2010-06-03, 15:45   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefano View Post
The system calculates a SBS based on head size and string pattern, but it doesn't take the kind of string (poly, gut etc) and the gauge into consideration, does it? Even with the same string but different gauge, the SBS will be different.
I think that Stringa explained it very well as usual. While string guage and type does have an impact on SBS, Stringway cannot make any generalizations outside the parameters of the machine and racquet. So, racquet size and pattern is all they can do, the rest is up to the stringer to reference string type/stiffness, etc..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefano View Post
Something more: as far as I know, the stiffness of the frame has an impact on the SBS as well, so - for example - a Volkl PB10 MP 295 grams and a Volkl PB10 MP 325 grams will produce a different SBS, everything else being equal.
I don't think that the frame weight will have a direct impact on SBS but more on the feel then anything else.

Stringa,

Thanks for a really great explanation and example. John should be at the FO so please say hey to John for me and tell him I will se him at the Symposium; first brews are on me

Cheers, TennezSport
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Old 2010-06-03, 22:44   #8
Stefano
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Thank you Stringa, that definitely makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TennezSport View Post

I don't think that the frame weight will have a direct impact on SBS but more on the feel then anything else.
Larry, what I meant is, the 2 Volkl I mentioned have same string bed size and same pattern, but the SBS comes out different. The differences between the 2 frames are weight, balance and stiffness. So we need to find the reason somewhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TennezSport View Post
While string guage and type does have an impact on SBS, Stringway cannot make any generalizations outside the parameters of the machine and racquet. So, racquet size and pattern is all they can do, the rest is up to the stringer to reference string type/stiffness, etc..
Exactly right!

Example: last night I strung a Volkl PB8 and a Babolat Aero Drive Lite. Same head size (L 33, W 24). Babolat has 1 more cross (16x19 vs. 16x18).
I strung the 2 frames as requested by the clients, 24 kg (53 lbs) on both mains and crosses, using the same string (Volkl Cyclone 18). Not a frame nor the other came out distorted whatsoever.

The PB8 came out with an SBS of 35, the Babolat was 37!

Does 1 cross effect the SBS so much or there is something else as well? Does an ATW pattern as I used on the Babolat effect the SBS too?

This are the variables I take into consideration as well.

What is difficult for me to understand (I know, I'm slow ) is: how can you determine an SBS a priori without considering ALL the variables? One small difference and the SBS changes.

I was telling brusaquarti that even the technique of the stringer has a HUGE impact. I said that if the 2 of us string the same racquet with the same string on the same machine at the same tension there are a lot of possibilities to obtain a different SBS.

Am I completely out of track?
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Last edited by Stefano; 2010-06-03 at 22:48.
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Old 2010-06-04, 08:40   #9
STRINGA
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Default SBS and other racquet and string specs

I forgot to tell more about the relation between SBS, stringing tensions and other specs of the string and the racquet so hereby some more info.
We developed the system in 1988 for Rucanor which is a Dutch company and major string supplier in Europe then. The system was called the String Computer and consisted of an electronic unit, where the customers could answer 7 questions and a stiffness tester that was connected to this unit. ( I will scan some pictures later and put them on line).

For this development we did a huge number of tests and we learnt a lot from them:

The easy thing about the relation between SBS and other specs is that you actually do not have to reckon with them when you calculate the stringing tensions.
The reason for this is that string specs, racquet stiffness and balance have difference influences on the playability of the racquet.
The string and the right racquet have to be chosen separately at the preference of the player.
[/IMG]

The choice of the string was in the system:
As you can see the route map advises a type of string and the stiffness both divided in 4 classes (C1 to C4).
The reason for this is that a stringer has to adjust the playability of the string bed with the tension and the right type of string:
* Some one with an arm injury who prefers comfort and does not play with spin needs a low tension and a string with more elongation to obtain speed and a low influence of the impact of the ball. The wear off resistance is not important at all.
* A hart hitter without any medical problems wants a high SBS for control on the speed and a durable string.

The strings were classified based on the following specs:
- The elongation character of the string, the elastic and remaining elongation. These figures were measured in elongation tests.
- The durability of the string.
The classification ran from C1 for the comfort string to C4 for the stiffest and most durable string. The table shows a number strings with the different figures.
[/IMG]
The string-gauge is not in the system because it has an undefined influence on the playability of strings. There are thin string which are stiff and thick strings which stretch a lot.

The importance of SBS and the specs of the string are different;
the SBS is of first importance the type of string is a secondary matter:*

When the first guy gets a high SBS instead of low it means:
- Because the string bed is hardly deflected on ball impact it will not offer any “spring effect” so no speed.
- When the string bed is hardly deflected the string will not stretch, so the player does not feel the high elongation qualities of the string.

It is useless to string a comfort string with stretch qualities at high tensions.

About the type of racquet and the SBS:
The stiffness and balance of a racquet have different influence on the playability then the SBS:
- A high stiffness means more speed and less comfort, while high SBS means less speed.
- The swing weight of the racquet offers more hammer effect, the SBS does not have influence in this.
- A high string density offers more durability of the string and less grip on the ball.

Of course a stringer can use the SBS and string type to compensate for specs of the racquet but it is much better for a player to select the right racquet first and then the SBS and string type separately.

Finally for now: Yes the stringer has a huge influence on the SBS:
- A fast stringer is a soft stringer because he does not wait until the tensioner has pulled all the elongation out of a string. So the string is still stretching after it has been clamped.
- Straightening the crosses while the tensioner is pulling makes a huge difference compared to straightening the crosses after finishing the string job.

I think that this discussion is of major importance in order to leave "stringing on tension" and to get to "stringing on stiffness" which is I much more logic and easier.

So lets continue this conversation.

Stringa
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Old 2010-06-04, 13:28   #10
TennezSport
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Thumbs up Great discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefano View Post
Example: last night I strung a Volkl PB8 and a Babolat Aero Drive Lite. Same head size (L 33, W 24). Babolat has 1 more cross (16x19 vs. 16x18).
I strung the 2 frames as requested by the clients, 24 kg (53 lbs) on both mains and crosses, using the same string (Volkl Cyclone 18). Not a frame nor the other came out distorted whatsoever.
The PB8 came out with an SBS of 35, the Babolat was 37!
Does 1 cross effect the SBS so much or there is something else as well? Does an ATW pattern as I used on the Babolat effect the SBS too?
Yes, I believe that even one additional cross will make a difference in SBS, with all other things being equal. Just that one more cross raises the stress on the mains, so SBS will go up a bit.

I cannot explain it any better than Stringa did in the example above. Thanks again Stringa for a very clear and concise explanation. This is a really great system for getting very consistent SBS in a frame, is this system still for sale in a more detailed package???

Cheers, TennezSport
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